i wonder what some people doing here

Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

LOL yeah, I got a kick out of the "How do I uninstall Vista?" posts. I mainly blame businesses like microsoft. Everyone wants to make software so easy to use.
If you want to install a disk drive, stick of RAM, take it to a tech. I don't know if you ever installed hardware, but it is the most simpliest thing. Read what the mobo supports and install. Mainstream people are not asked to think/learn. Now the education is out there, but it's not 'Pop out in front of your face' there. Which some people need, because some people have 0% common sense.
"audiodragon" wrote:

Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

"I like "I need to unformat my partition" and "I installed Vista on my computer at my place of work, and now I'm having problems". Personally I installed Vista on my work computer, but first I took out the hard drive and rubbed the platters with a wire brush and then put it in a microwave, to make sure the XP icons didn't jump from one partition to the other. As they often do. Sorry for my sarcasm.

"audiodragon" wrote in message

"I like "I need to unformat my partition" and "I installed Vista on my computer at my place of work, and now I'm having problems". Personally I installed Vista on my work computer, but first I took out the hard drive and rubbed the platters with a wire brush and then put it in a microwave, to make sure the XP icons didn't jump from one partition to the other. As they often do. Sorry for my sarcasm.

My personal favorite was the person who installed it at his small business and then posted he couldn't print his invoices.

Oh SNAP! I missed that one. Perhaps I could have advised him.
"Tom Scales" wrote in message

My personal favorite was the person who installed it at his small business and then posted he couldn't print his invoices.

Hence the reason(s) most of us that Beta test do it on a separate box. I have a computer that I generally only use for Beta testing so if things go awry it is no big deal to format and start over. Why anybody install a Beta on a system that they are using for their everyday computing with files that are not backed up etc... is beyond me. -Wojo
"Mark D. VandenBerg" wrote in message

Oh SNAP! I missed that one. Perhaps I could have advised him.
"Tom Scales" wrote in message
My personal favorite was the person who installed it at his small business and then posted he couldn't print his invoices.

I imagine that for more than a few who "thought" they knew what they were doing, this has been a humbling experience.
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional!

No doubt Same happened with the SP2 Beta -Wojo
"Mark D. VandenBerg" wrote in message

I imagine that for more than a few who "thought" they knew what they were doing, this has been a humbling experience.
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional!

M@dhat3rr wrote:

LOL yeah, I got a kick out of the "How do I uninstall Vista?" posts. I mainly blame businesses like microsoft. Everyone wants to make software so easy to use.

And this is wrong because...?
-- Chris Game
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

audiodragon wrote:

Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!

On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.

"Chris Game" wrote in message

audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.

To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

But on the other hand, its through trying to do NEW things that we all grow -- and being ignorant isn't a crime, the crime comes in being content to remain that way -- These news groups are for all levels of expertise if you can help -- great if not --- leave well enough alone. The only stupid question is the one unasked ;-)
"Wojo (MVP Windows - Digital Media)" wrote in message

"Chris Game" wrote in message audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.
To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

True I suppose. I just feel that it is in the users own best interests to at least know the basics before trying to take on something as big as an OS Beta. I answer what many would consider "obvious" questions every day and twice on Sunday without complaint I wouldn't have received an MVP award if I didn't but if you don't have basic computer skills and you decide to run an OS Beta then you are going to spend more time trying to figure it out than you will spend actually "using" the product. -Wojo
"Wendell A. Clark" wrote in message

But on the other hand, its through trying to do NEW things that we all grow -- and being ignorant isn't a crime, the crime comes in being content to remain that way -- These news groups are for all levels of expertise if you can help -- great if not --- leave well enough alone. The only stupid question is the one unasked ;-)
"Wojo (MVP Windows - Digital Media)" wrote in message
"Chris Game" wrote in message audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.
To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

I agree. Being ignorant isn't a crime. Neither is being stupid. But the ignorant can learn and become informed.
Witness the myriad of instances in this very forum of the same poster asking the same question repeatedly and then not following the advice given.
This is the real elephant on the sofa.
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional!
"Wendell A. Clark" wrote in message

But on the other hand, its through trying to do NEW things that we all grow -- and being ignorant isn't a crime, the crime comes in being content to remain that way -- These news groups are for all levels of expertise if you can help -- great if not --- leave well enough alone. The only stupid question is the one unasked ;-)
"Wojo (MVP Windows - Digital Media)" wrote in message
"Chris Game" wrote in message audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.
To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

Mark D. VandenBerg wrote:

I agree. Being ignorant isn't a crime. Neither is being stupid. But the ignorant can learn and become informed.
Witness the myriad of instances in this very forum of the same poster asking the same question repeatedly and then not following the advice given.
This is the real elephant on the sofa.

I wonder, based on a U.S. Supreme Court ruling some years back, if it just might be illegal to be ignorant. The Court did rule that ignorance was not a valid excuse for violating a law, nor grounds to plead 'not guilty' to violation of a law. So, in a round about way, it is illegal to be ignorant.
Stupidity is another thing, but apparently there isn't a known cure for it.

Darwinism
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional!
"John Boy" wrote in message

Stupidity is another thing, but apparently there isn't a known cure for it.

Obviously because some people are under the illusion that public beta's should 'just work'. Little lone the questions about uninstalling a OS. You don't uninstall an OS, you reformat the hard drive. Easy to use software gives regular people the thought that it all can just be made to fix, install and uninstall easily. And since companies try to produce easier to use UI's, or at least claim to, people have no need to think, they can just click a few buttons and *poof* all fixed. I am under the belief that all people who purchase a pc should take a basic pc course. You have to take flying or boating courses before you utilize such entertainment/travel, why not using ibm clones?
"Chris Game" wrote:

M@dhat3rr wrote:
LOL yeah, I got a kick out of the "How do I uninstall Vista?" posts. I mainly blame businesses like microsoft. Everyone wants to make software so easy to use.
And this is wrong because...?
-- Chris Game
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

I don't know about the basic PC course. But I agree in that after reading through these the only conclusion I could draw was that Microsoft should never release OS betas to the public. The way people are installing and using it, and the things they're installing are enough to make your hair stand on end. Not to mention the totally unrealistic expectations, presumptions, and beliefs.
"M@dhat3rr" wrote in message

Obviously because some people are under the illusion that public beta's should 'just work'. Little lone the questions about uninstalling a OS. You don't uninstall an OS, you reformat the hard drive. Easy to use software gives regular people the thought that it all can just be made to fix, install and uninstall easily. And since companies try to produce easier to use UI's, or at least claim to, people have no need to think, they can just click a few buttons and *poof* all fixed. I am under the belief that all people who purchase a pc should take a basic pc course. You have to take flying or boating courses before you utilize such entertainment/travel, why not using ibm clones?
"Chris Game" wrote:
M@dhat3rr wrote:
LOL yeah, I got a kick out of the "How do I uninstall Vista?" posts. I mainly blame businesses like microsoft. Everyone wants to make software so easy to use.
And this is wrong because...?
-- Chris Game
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

Alan Simpson wrote:

I don't know about the basic PC course. But I agree in that after reading through these the only conclusion I could draw was that Microsoft should never release OS betas to the public. The way people are installing and using it, and the things they're installing are enough to make your hair stand on end. Not to mention the totally unrealistic expectations, presumptions, and beliefs.

But these are future Vista users and the largest segment of the market, the nerds and geeks are a small minority who may think completely differently from others. Interface and usability issues need to be explored with the full population of users, not just OS experts!
-- Chris Game
".NET...helps developers deliver a deep and compelling user experience..." MSFT web-site

Yeah but you're not getting that kind of feedback here. All you're getting is people trying to get old hardware/software to run, or trying to get Vista off their system. I think the cost is too high, considering the problems many of these users are experiencing. I think that on an OS beta it would be wise to wait until and RC1 candidate or something.
Besides, their not going to change the interface because of anything anyone posts here. It's too late for that. All these people are suffering for no reason. We already know a lot of old stuff doesn't work, and won't work until there are updated drivers and versions available.
It really boils down to the difference between an OS and an app. Beta testing apps is no big deal. An OS is a whole different story. These peoples' sufferings aren't helping this product, or going to change this product, one iota.
"Chris Game" wrote in message

Alan Simpson wrote:
I don't know about the basic PC course. But I agree in that after reading through these the only conclusion I could draw was that Microsoft should never release OS betas to the public. The way people are installing and using it, and the things they're installing are enough to make your hair stand on end. Not to mention the totally unrealistic expectations, presumptions, and beliefs.
But these are future Vista users and the largest segment of the market, the nerds and geeks are a small minority who may think completely differently from others. Interface and usability issues need to be explored with the full population of users, not just OS experts!
-- Chris Game
".NET...helps developers deliver a deep and compelling user experience..." MSFT web-site

Future users, yes. Present testers, no.
"Chris Game" wrote in message

Alan Simpson wrote:
I don't know about the basic PC course. But I agree in that after reading through these the only conclusion I could draw was that Microsoft should never release OS betas to the public. The way people are installing and using it, and the things they're installing are enough to make your hair stand on end. Not to mention the totally unrealistic expectations, presumptions, and beliefs.
But these are future Vista users and the largest segment of the market, the nerds and geeks are a small minority who may think completely differently from others. Interface and usability issues need to be explored with the full population of users, not just OS experts!
-- Chris Game
".NET...helps developers deliver a deep and compelling user experience..." MSFT web-site

Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:

Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

"Alan Simpson" wrote in message

Yeah but you're not getting that kind of feedback here. All you're getting is people trying to get old hardware/software to run, or trying to get Vista off their system. I think the cost is too high, considering the problems many of these users are experiencing. I think that on an OS beta it would be wise to wait until and RC1 candidate or something.
Besides, their not going to change the interface because of anything anyone posts here. It's too late for that. All these people are suffering for no reason. We already know a lot of old stuff doesn't work, and won't work until there are updated drivers and versions available.
It really boils down to the difference between an OS and an app. Beta testing apps is no big deal. An OS is a whole different story. These peoples' sufferings aren't helping this product, or going to change this product, one iota.
"Chris Game" wrote in message Alan Simpson wrote:
I don't know about the basic PC course. But I agree in that after reading through these the only conclusion I could draw was that Microsoft should never release OS betas to the public. The way people are installing and using it, and the things they're installing are enough to make your hair stand on end. Not to mention the totally unrealistic expectations, presumptions, and beliefs.
Much to Intel's and Microsoft's disappointment, mainstream business does not

replace equipment every time a new version appears. The USA tax laws also specify a much longer time to depreciate (computer) equipment than the current life of a O/S. Software writers are the driving force on many a O/S upgrade when the write applications that ONLY work (not always a bad thing) with the latest O/S releases . Add to the picture, Hazardous waste laws that cost $$ to dispose of obsolete electronics. "Run it till it drops" becomes a good business practice :/
Bottom line: All us Beta testers that are trying Vista on older hardware WILL give MS a picture of what it WILL run on and also a prod to develop those drivers IF there seems to be a large group of potential upgrades for a specific device.

But these are future Vista users and the largest segment of the market, the nerds and geeks are a small minority who may think completely differently from others. Interface and usability issues need to be explored with the full population of users, not just OS experts!
-- Chris Game

Steve

"audiodragon" wrote in message

Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

I think most posters are missing the point. In addition to the inevitable (this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc /vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40 related to Vista right now: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
"audiodragon" wrote in message

Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

Clarence Thomas is a Justice who would not be employed by most law firms in any area that does federal litigation except perhaps as a "Rainmaker" to bring in some right winged clients, , so obviously it is not illegal to be ignorant.
The U.S. is facing a pandemic that has gone human to human that was placed on page 6 in the Wall Street Journal at the bottom with a tiny column by buying a ton of a drug Tamiflu that will only serve to increase resistance and kill faster and has no efficacy for H5N1 mutations. Many of the purchasers are MDs. There is no vaccine and China was not prevented from giving 600,000 does of it to asymptomatic farmers in rural villages--one of the most dangerous things for the planet that could have been done.
Most states have done nothing to address it, and said nothing about it, and some states have vets as governor. None of them have hospital capacity adequate to begin to handle it.
It certainly was not illegal to be ignorant there.
In the USA, while study after study including those paid for by taxpayers have shown that current SUV height kills a thousand people a year, legislation to lower the fronts of the gas guzzlers will not be viable until 2009. The country is prepared to lose 1000 people per year until then.
It certainly is not illegal but very lethal to be ignorant there.
MSFT has softie bloggers that assert their company is protecting its employees from an Avian flu pandemic by putting up signs to wash their hands--ignorance there is not illegal.
CH

"John Boy" wrote in message

Mark D. VandenBerg wrote: I agree. Being ignorant isn't a crime. Neither is being stupid. But the ignorant can learn and become informed.
Witness the myriad of instances in this very forum of the same poster asking the same question repeatedly and then not following the advice given.
This is the real elephant on the sofa.
I wonder, based on a U.S. Supreme Court ruling some years back, if it just might be illegal to be ignorant. The Court did rule that ignorance was not a valid excuse for violating a law, nor grounds to plead 'not guilty' to violation of a law. So, in a round about way, it is illegal to be ignorant.
Stupidity is another thing, but apparently there isn't a known cure for it.

I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message

It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

I certainly don't have a problem with betas in general. The problem is that an OS beta is so different from any other betas. A beta of an app is no big deal. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. No big loss. It (probably) doesn't affect anything else on your system.
Obviously with an OS, it's a completely different story. Even when it does work, it doesn't necessarily mean it works with the hardware and software you want it to work with. And it could be months before it does. And there's the rub. People aren't expecting that, and it's causing a lot of (what I think are) unnecessary headaches for folks. Some headaches bigger than others.
Anyway, the dearth of info is also an issue. You definitely won't get any argument from me there. It's hard to find anything anywhere about many of the things in this product.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

I think most posters are missing the point. In addition to the inevitable (this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc /vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40 related to Vista right now: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
"audiodragon" wrote in message Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

Gimme--
Also ayk there are thousands of Vista forums where Beta testers and others hang who like to answer esoteric questions--although MSFT is ensuring the esoteric remains in Vista by refusing to provide timely information in sufficient detail at a sophisticated level because they simply excel at dragging ass.
CH

Please put your more essoteric questions up here and see if they get answered. Be sure to lable them "my more essoteric questions with an asterisk. "GimmeBreak" wrote in message

Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

MSFT has been downright nasty when asked to provide information, belive me Alan. Arrogance at Redmond knows no bounds. I don't know where you and other authors of major book writers are getting it, but they have absolutely refused to provide any and many of their presentations have slides that they simply refuse to explain and maybe lack the ability to explain. Maybe the developers haven't educated and spoonfed the PMS enough.
I could show you countless examples. I haven't seen a Beta tester or a softie launch an intelligent discussion of a number of features and this thing birthed in July. Also this isn't their first OS. They go through the same crap with drivers lagging and quickly blaming 3rd party companies when they have made a minimal effort to get 3rd parties on board. And yes, I know it's considerably more complex, and has a lot more code, and now there is the dimension of 64 bit processors and 64 bit OS's including Vista.
As far as apps that work--MSFT can't even make their own applications (One Care, Defender) work with Vista or their own utilities (SFC, SR) and their own hardware--Mice, keyboards.
CH
I'm so proud to live in a country where a moron who is president plans to use his first veto against embronic stem cell funding, because right winged anti-scientific religiosity and thousands of deaths from cancer, spinal cord injuries, and Type 1 subset diabetes go hand in hand.
The authoritarian fear mongering personality seems to be what the people want, and they are sure as hell getting it. It's going to bring a lot of continual death.
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message

I certainly don't have a problem with betas in general. The problem is that an OS beta is so different from any other betas. A beta of an app is no big deal. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. No big loss. It (probably) doesn't affect anything else on your system.
Obviously with an OS, it's a completely different story. Even when it does work, it doesn't necessarily mean it works with the hardware and software you want it to work with. And it could be months before it does. And there's the rub. People aren't expecting that, and it's causing a lot of (what I think are) unnecessary headaches for folks. Some headaches bigger than others.
Anyway, the dearth of info is also an issue. You definitely won't get any argument from me there. It's hard to find anything anywhere about many of the things in this product.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I think most posters are missing the point. In addition to the inevitable (this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc /vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40 related to Vista right now: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
"audiodragon" wrote in message Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

The major reason that people don't have basic computer skills is in my experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH
"Wendell A. Clark" wrote in message

But on the other hand, its through trying to do NEW things that we all grow -- and being ignorant isn't a crime, the crime comes in being content to remain that way -- These news groups are for all levels of expertise if you can help -- great if not --- leave well enough alone. The only stupid question is the one unasked ;-)
"Wojo (MVP Windows - Digital Media)" wrote in message
"Chris Game" wrote in message audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.
To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

I think a great example of this laziness is manifested in wanting the government to do everything for them, and also pay for it. Biomedical research, for example. If there truly was a hope for some of the projects these people are demanding the government pay for, wouldn't it be logical that a company would do this research, develop the patents and make a profit?
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional! "Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

The major reason that people don't have basic computer skills is in my experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH

Where are those Vista forums?
Hah - next to the lack of drivers, the lack of info is the most frustrating thing on this one.
"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

Gimme--
Also ayk there are thousands of Vista forums where Beta testers and others hang who like to answer esoteric questions--although MSFT is ensuring the esoteric remains in Vista by refusing to provide timely information in sufficient detail at a sophisticated level because they simply excel at dragging ass.
CH

Please put your more essoteric questions up here and see if they get answered. Be sure to lable them "my more essoteric questions with an asterisk. "GimmeBreak" wrote in message Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

It's not quite as simple as a welfare model. Companies do a lot of research, develop patents and try to develop creative ways to block other manufacturers after the patent expires and they make a ton of profit. They inflate their prices and the purported R&D costs vastly. The current government, operating on the K Street pimp-whore-john model has created a system where they have outlawed true competitive bidding and refused to allow drugs to be purchased in a way to achieve the most competitive pricing.
There is private embryonic stem cell research going on; and some states have rejected the federal Religious fundamentalist effort to squelch it. California is one. Bill Gates was one of the prime backers of embryonic stem cell research legislation.
CH
Can embronic stem cell research find a cure for stupid?
"Mark D. VandenBerg" wrote in message

I think a great example of this laziness is manifested in wanting the government to do everything for them, and also pay for it. Biomedical research, for example. If there truly was a hope for some of the projects these people are demanding the government pay for, wouldn't it be logical that a company would do this research, develop the patents and make a profit?
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional! "Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message The major reason that people don't have basic computer skills is in my experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH

It's a simple question: Why should the federal government pay for it?
-- Mark
Keeping the fun in dysfunctional! "Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

It's not quite as simple as a welfare model. Companies do a lot of research, develop patents and try to develop creative ways to block other manufacturers after the patent expires and they make a ton of profit. They inflate their prices and the purported R&D costs vastly. The current government, operating on the K Street pimp-whore-john model has created a system where they have outlawed true competitive bidding and refused to allow drugs to be purchased in a way to achieve the most competitive pricing.
There is private embryonic stem cell research going on; and some states have rejected the federal Religious fundamentalist effort to squelch it. California is one. Bill Gates was one of the prime backers of embryonic stem cell research legislation.
CH
Can embronic stem cell research find a cure for stupid?

Well you definitely have a point there. Even if the info were available, most people would ignore it. It's easier and more fun to just assume things are the way they want or expect them to be and go for it.
But the consequences of that with an OS beta can be nasty. Unless they have a lot of spare time on their hands to fix things. Maybe they do, I don't know.
"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

The major reason that people don't have basic computer skills is in my experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH
"Wendell A. Clark" wrote in message But on the other hand, its through trying to do NEW things that we all grow -- and being ignorant isn't a crime, the crime comes in being content to remain that way -- These news groups are for all levels of expertise if you can help -- great if not --- leave well enough alone. The only stupid question is the one unasked ;-)
"Wojo (MVP Windows - Digital Media)" wrote in message
"Chris Game" wrote in message audiodragon wrote:
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone!
On the contrary, MSFT could learn a lot from the queries Joe Public come up with in their attempts to find a decent Operating System.
-- Chris Game
All generalizations are false, including this one.
To some extent I agree but I think the point is that some of the questions seem to be centered around basic computing skills. If you don't have a good working knowledge of computers in general it is not a good idea to install and run a Beta especially an OS. I have computer skills and it took some time to get Vista 5384 up and running correctly. Without those skills I never would have gotten things going. -Wojo

Before the beta went public there were some people in here who already had an astonishing amount of knowledge about Vista. I'm talking about back at the earliest Beta 1 builds. That's where I was getting much of my info initially. I think things have just gotten too crazy in here for them to stick around. Too many questions where the tempting answer is something along the lines of "...Vista isn't the same as XP" ;-)
"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message

MSFT has been downright nasty when asked to provide information, belive me Alan. Arrogance at Redmond knows no bounds. I don't know where you and other authors of major book writers are getting it, but they have absolutely refused to provide any and many of their presentations have slides that they simply refuse to explain and maybe lack the ability to explain. Maybe the developers haven't educated and spoonfed the PMS enough.
I could show you countless examples. I haven't seen a Beta tester or a softie launch an intelligent discussion of a number of features and this thing birthed in July. Also this isn't their first OS. They go through the same crap with drivers lagging and quickly blaming 3rd party companies when they have made a minimal effort to get 3rd parties on board. And yes, I know it's considerably more complex, and has a lot more code, and now there is the dimension of 64 bit processors and 64 bit OS's including Vista.
As far as apps that work--MSFT can't even make their own applications (One Care, Defender) work with Vista or their own utilities (SFC, SR) and their own hardware--Mice, keyboards.
CH
I'm so proud to live in a country where a moron who is president plans to use his first veto against embronic stem cell funding, because right winged anti-scientific religiosity and thousands of deaths from cancer, spinal cord injuries, and Type 1 subset diabetes go hand in hand.
The authoritarian fear mongering personality seems to be what the people want, and they are sure as hell getting it. It's going to bring a lot of continual death.
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message I certainly don't have a problem with betas in general. The problem is that an OS beta is so different from any other betas. A beta of an app is no big deal. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. No big loss. It (probably) doesn't affect anything else on your system.
Obviously with an OS, it's a completely different story. Even when it does work, it doesn't necessarily mean it works with the hardware and software you want it to work with. And it could be months before it does. And there's the rub. People aren't expecting that, and it's causing a lot of (what I think are) unnecessary headaches for folks. Some headaches bigger than others.
Anyway, the dearth of info is also an issue. You definitely won't get any argument from me there. It's hard to find anything anywhere about many of the things in this product.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I think most posters are missing the point. In addition to the inevitable (this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc /vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40 related to Vista right now: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
"audiodragon" wrote in message Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

Chad Harris wrote On 7/11/2006 12:32 PM:

some states have vets as governor.

Veternarians are no big deal as governors. California has a real Terminator in office and one of those frozen northern states had a Predator-hunter. Come to think of it, we had a pre-governor's conference in the Predator movie.
Top that for ignorant behavior. Well, at least bizarre.

Good point in there, what are some of the things that you all would consider a top priotity right now?
"GimmeBreak" wrote:

Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.

What would you all consider as top priority right now?
"GimmeBreak" wrote:

Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.

"Chad Harris" <Bushisamoron.net> wrote in message I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista book authors remain Alan.
CH
"Alan Simpson" wrote in message It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside (if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.

"TiredofU-people who" <TiredofU-people who@discussions.microsoft.com wrote in message Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
"audiodragon" wrote:
Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are trying to test a BETA version of an operating system. Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.